Your comments on this will be appreciated

topic posted Fri, March 23, 2007 - 7:13 AM by  B
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Money

Everybody (well almost everybody) wants more of it, there never seems to be enough money to go around and almost all governments spend more money it has. You spend an enormous amount of time working for, thinking about, spending and being frustrated about money but do you really know what it is, where it comes from, who controls it and how it is created? There was a point in time that I thought that I knew where money came from, I was misinformed. Misinformed by an education system that only tells part of the story and ignores many of the not so obvious and not so pleasant facts. Misinformed by a financial industry that has an agenda of profit, gluttonous profit.

Sometimes the misinformation is not intentional. The mass media will print or broadcast statements made by members of the Federal Reserve, Bankers and economic experts. These statements always steer scrutiny for the current economic situation away from the institutions they represent and toward the actions of other countries, foreign banks and even people like you and me. You may find it hard to believe today but in the history of banking there were periods of extreme opposition to banks.

There are several problems facing almost every country today, unemployment, inflation, and ecological destruction as well as a large and rapidly growing debt. Invariably the blame is cast on the politicians running the country, the workers in the country, maybe even the weather of the country but never on the currency systems of the country.

The Current Economic System

Sometimes we want to believe things that simply can't be supported by research or facts. One is that the current monetary system benefits the majority of the people and is environmentally responsible. War, environmental destruction, loss of bio-diversity, poverty are not isolated political or corporate problems. They are problems with one root cause that the financial system of the world is horribly out of whack.

The current financial system has diverged from its two main roles those being a standard of value and medium of exchange.

Today more money is traded as a commodity than it is used to move commodities and pay wages. Currency trading takes away control from people, corporations, governments (social good) and put it in the hands of a few traders whose interest is only in profits not stability. In fact instability generate more profits. The suffering that the instability causes generates profits. This will continue until an instability that is too large to control occurs.

Witness today the mantra of economic growth and free trade that are not leading us toward economic justice and environmental sustainability. Rather they are taking us in the direction of increasing economic injustice and environmental destruction.

When it cones to environmental concerns the debate always turns to jobs versus the environment. These arguments not only miss the point they are constructed to instill fear and sustain the status quo. The evidence is mounting that in a resource scarce world, neither is possible without the other.

The current economic system produces an irreconcilable conflict between the goal of creating economically just and environmentally sustainable societies and embracing sustained economic growth. The current policies are constructed to produce more millionaires and billionaires. They are not designed to achieving justice (social, economic or environmental) and sustainability.


Economic War

The economic war, and it is a war, for control of the worlds supply of money is being waged every day. It is a war for energy supplies and the currency used for exchange of the energy (petrodollars). Ruinous interest rates and onerous terms of trade are killing millions of people on a plundered planet. Hunger, sickness, homelessness, unemployment and criminality kill them. At the extreme some people receive millions a day in interest and children are sold into sexual slavery to pay off her parents debts.

Who controls the food supply controls the people; who controls the energy can control
whole continents; who controls money can control the world.
Henry A. Kissinger


Workers within countries are being forced into a war of wages and benefits with the current “free trade’ and Globalism movements. C. H. DOUGLAS predicted some of the current problems with trade and the protests against Globalism in 1924. His proposal of “Social Credit” does not receive a lot of course time in college economic courses if it is even brought up at all. When it is there is a certain amount of intellectual dishonesty in the discussion.

In all wars there are casualties, dead soldiers, homelessness, a damaged and polluted environment. You are involved in an economic war every month when you have to pay your home mortgage or your credit card bills. You have been drawn into an economic war with your neighbors and other people like you across the nation and across the globe and you probably didn’t even notice it.

Like all wars governments are involved. In the USA it is Congress that passes the laws and in the economic war this is where the battlefield is very heavily stacked against the individual consumer, citizen, voter, man or woman. In Congress the largest political contributions are credit cards companies and consumer financial service companies. Not big oil, not big pharmaceutical! A great big multibillion-dollar industry talking to Congress, whispering in their ear. Just like in a shooting war big money buys bigger and better guns. As in all wars, to the victor go the spoils, or in this case profits and not just good profits but extraordinary profits, unreasonable profits, unconscionable profits. This is a “feature” of government that is being copied all over the world from first world countries to third world countries. It is any wonder the third world countries are so heavily in debt?

Less than 1% of the population is now claiming ownership to almost 50% of the wealth and the trend is not in favor of the many but in favor of the few.


People control money (if they want to)

The Chinese parable of “The Monkey Master” is a story of what happens when a people wake up the their enslavement and take back control of their destiny. Money is a system designed by people, if it doesn’t serve us we can redesign it. Many people in the past have done exactly this. There are examples of alternative currencies functioning for the benefit of all the people. Where there has been too much success, Worgl for example, the central bank of the country had stepped in and outlawed the alternative currency plunging the community back into economic depression.


Alternative Currency, Alternative Economy

Changing the worlds economic system won’t be easy. There is an enormous amount of inertia to be overcome. There is also a huge body of myths about the current system of money. The money system is intentionally obfuscated to make it difficult for people to understand. Replacing the current currency system with an Alternative currency is not a popular idea especially with many of the governments in the world, the captains of industry and especially the financial industry.

History shows a better world is possible when committed people work hard enough for it. A small number of committed people ended slavery. Committed people helped workers win the right to organize and bargain collectively. The women’s suffrage movement won women the right to vote and regain control of their own bodies. Minorities won important civil rights.

Changing the world’s economy will be far more difficult than any of the proceeding changes in history. A change in the economy would shift control from a few powerful governments and a small group of people to majority of people. This type of change like overthrowing never comes easily. The current system is an economic dictatorship and history has shown that eventually all dictatorships fall under its own weight, greed and corruption. You can see some of this happening every day. By constructing and using an alternative currency now the transition from economic dictatorship to freedom will be possible.
posted by:
B
offline B
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  • Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

    Fri, March 23, 2007 - 11:38 AM
    Those darn Worglese are always having trouble with their central bank. In effect the Bank of Worgl is so troublesome that everyone outside that marvelous country do their best to forget where it is. At the moment I can't remember where it is either, Anyone help?

    Now B, what do you suggest for a universal alt currency?
    • B
      B
      offline 121

      Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

      Fri, March 23, 2007 - 10:35 PM
      Worgl is in Germany.

      Actually for a currency I am leaning towards something similar to the Terra. But as the Terra is a complimentary currency designed to assist the environment I would make it a true alternative currency. As for the actual implementation it would be software. That is the actual currency you carry would be software. Little software tally sticks that you load into a “wallet’ and can transfer between people and through any electronic network. The software would have a half-life, which would give it a property of demurrage. It would carry minimal information so that no government or individual could use it to track its use other than where it is at the present time. There would be safe havens for the currency, like investing in a tree farm or food farm where the half-life would be come infinite. That is no loss of your money, the only “interest rate” you will get will be 0%. The stock market would likewise be inverted and you would invest only to receive dividends and you could only remove your investment for cost, not capital gains. Promoting investment for the long term and corporate management for long term dividends. Oh I have picked a name but I that will come out when I put all this up on a website.
      • Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

        Sat, April 7, 2007 - 9:47 AM
        Well, hmmm..I had never heard of Worgl
        and Both of my sets of grandparents came from germany.

        I agree with what you say B

        I do set off on a different path when it comes to alternative currency though. For 2 reasons.

        1.) It's been done, been done, been done.

        The problem with money, fiat money, commodity money, fractional reserve or whatever we wish to name it is this; there will always be those clever enough, cunning enough, lacking in human morals who will devise ways of getting more. Without regard to who gets ploughed over in the process.

        This is in no way a criticism of those who do work hard and smart to gain more income than the average medium income human being.

        Our history is full of money moving into a saner more honest method. Where banks make money only on banking fees such as cheque handling, where they actually have money to lend--which then becomes unavailable for anything else until the loan is paid. They always morphed into fiat money--which is the beginning of the end for any country.

        Now it is about the planet. We can no longer be separate countries. Ethnic differences are fine. That's not what I am saying.

        Spaceship Earth is going through a tricky patch right now and the only way to make it, as I see it, is to honor and respect each one of her crew. And allow them the freedom to reach their own highest version of themselves, for the good of us all.

        In this same time frame we are maturing as a species and becoming more and more aware that we are in this together and that all men are our brothers.

        2.) Money fails to serve it's intended purpose in a technological society. I guess that's not something you hear every day. But it has been known and understood since the Great Depression if not before.

        Everywhere you look you hear about machines taking away jobs. Which is true. And that would be okay if we didnt rely on money to feed and clothe ourselves, to privide adequate shelter. Machines are far more efficient than human beings at many jobs, do not draw a wage and spend very little money.

        Machines are not consumers. When you have a Drop in consumers, or consumer spending, economic growth begins to run backwards. The price system, money if you will, relies on economic growth.

        Those still left in the production game are forced to be more competitive, even to create new products which are just as good as the old and twice as disposable. Still not enough moneyed consumers to buy and the downward spiral continues.

        This is why we see so much waste. So much devastation to our planet and so much exploitation of less developed countries. Not to mention human lives.

        Technology itself is wonderful. It is not our enemy at all. We do have the technological means right now to feed and care for every human being on the planet in full abundance. Sadly, because of money and the profit imperitive, this cannot happen.

        My solution then, I will post in a new topic.
        Thank you for reading.
        And thank you B for the invite.
        • B
          B
          offline 121

          Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

          Sat, April 7, 2007 - 9:37 PM
          You hear more and more people admitting this even some economists. One of the more famous is Bernard Lietaer the father of the Euro. He is proposing the Tera not to replace money but to assist it. I do believe that the world needs to replace the current interest based money system with a demurrage system. This was done many times in the history of the world and it worked to the benefit of people (not banks or corporations) each time. The Tera is also a demurrage-based currency.

          I feel that the message has to start reaching a wider audience.
          • Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

            Tue, April 10, 2007 - 5:57 AM
            I googled "demurrage alternative currency" and I think I have finally understood what you mean B. It does appear to be a fairer system, avoiding hording for one thing.. but sometimes there are backlogs and delays for trade that can happen innocently,- so this would need complicated beaurocracy., but wuld not be too hard to move into from the current system, if enough people demand it..

            I have personally never understood why gambling and such is forbidden in many countries, but banks and economic trade are an established and even respected part of society!-

            I fear there is very much education needed for a general public to be convinced that such a system would be sensible or even safe. :-(

            It is great that you can formulate this so clearly B, and I guess it just needs persistence to finally reach a crucial mass to make a large scale spreading of information possible. - But as we have seen with the environmental lobby, Al Gore and so many others,- they are up against a mean money making machine, and it took 30 years to reach the attention of joe bloggs.
            I suspect even more back biting and subversive resistance if anyone seriously tries to overturn the money system..

            On a more positive note: I have been a member of a L.E.T.S. in several countries and towns and they have always greatly benefitted the local community.. but the problem always being that some offers were immensely more popular than the others.. (i.e. organic veg vs astrology reading),- and some ended up with far too many tokens, and others were chronically in debt.. If the prosperous ones were given an incentive to get rid of their excess( as the demurrage f. eg. would), if need be donate them, that should help the system. So when I start one here in Zurich, I will implement this. Thank you for telling me about it, B ;-))
            • B
              B
              offline 121

              Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

              Tue, April 10, 2007 - 6:37 AM
              <I have personally never understood why gambling and such is forbidden in many countries, but banks and economic trade are an established and even respected part of society!- >

              Now that is an interesting question. I am going to have to work that into my webstie. In the US the Congress has passes ( I think it passed) a law that restricts citizens from gambleing on the Internet, yet everyday trillions of dollars are "gambled" by bands in derrivatives. I wonder if people can't use the law to close the banks?
  • jim
    jim
    offline 0

    Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

    Wed, April 25, 2007 - 6:59 PM
    You seem to be interested in Social Credit?

    I am a keen student of Douglas, and am a university graduate in economics, and you are correct that he does not get any attention in university economics courses. Having studied Douglas post university, I am of the belief that he is to economics what Einstein is to physics. His ideas are totally revolutionary within the field, and that is why he is poorly understood, and considered a "heretic" by some economists. I have my own blog is your interested, and there is links to alot of Social Credit material there:

    social-credit.blogspot.com/

    I also have lots of stuff on PDF file, including his testimony before the Select Standing Committee on Banking and Finance in Canada in 1923, his testimony before the Alberta Agricultural Commission in 1935 and his testimony before the MacMillan Committee on Industry and Finance, in which John Maynard Keynes was present, and questioned Douglas.

    Take care.
    • B
      B
      offline 121

      Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

      Wed, April 25, 2007 - 9:34 PM
      I am interested in seeing the total and complete collapse of the current financial system. Seeing it replaced with a system that is not based on debt and interest. As such I am interested in the works of Douglas, Gesell, Lietaer and anyone else who has a better solution for the social problems generated by the economic system of today.
      • jim
        jim
        offline 0

        Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

        Thu, April 26, 2007 - 8:25 PM
        I agree. However; do Gesell and Lietaer have a better solution?

        Gesell's theory is based upon "disappearing money", and the money itself loses value the longer you hold it.

        Lietaer is anti-"usury", and believes that 10 can't pay for 11 (which is the socialist attack upon profit in general, and criticize this groups because they focus on bank profit - interest is profit). Of course, with a system of revolving credit where loans are coming due at different times the principle from another loan can be used to pay the interest of different loan. Since interest is bank equity, this money is not cancelled upon receipt like the principal of the loan, but can be given back to shareholder's as dividends.

        Both solutions are based on the theory of full employment. Douglas realized that the "time-energy" units expended in production were decreasing over time because of improved processes, technology and increases in physical capital. He discovered an accounting flaw which was exposed in his A+B theorem. One of the flaws which he discovered was based on the fact that you don't have to build a bridge to eat a cabbage, which is economic fallacy created by increasing debt. which is caused by the gap between prices and income described in his A+B theorem. Social Credit is based upon consumer control of production, and it is the belief of Social Crediter's that man will choose to lead of life of leisure and self-development if the monetary system is not used as a form of government designed to make us all work for it's own sake (i.e to get an income).

        This has environmental implecations. I don't know about you, but I expend most of my consumption of fossil fuels going to and from work. A society in which individuals were free to consume more leisure as technology, would consume work less, and most probably consume far less fossil fuels (on top of this is included all the other fossil fuels consumed because we are all working for its own sake (i.e. to get an income). Some economists will even claim that war is good for the economy (as if destruction is a good?).

        I'm interested in anyone who has a better solution to the problems generated by the ecoonomic system, and I believe that Douglas' policies were alot better than any other that I've seen. And I think he understood money and prices better than anyone I've ever seen.
        • jim
          jim
          offline 0

          Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

          Thu, April 26, 2007 - 8:45 PM
          "It's Your Money They Want
          Now this book of Mr. Maynard Keynes to which I have referred, represents apparently a sudden conversion on the part of the author to the monetary theories of Silvio Gesell, the originator of the idea of "disappearing money," that is, money that loses its value month by month unless spent (as if money did not disappear fast enough already).
          The idea is that if you have got a lOs. note today you have to put a penny stamp on it a fortnight hence to keep it worth lOs., and another penny stamp in a further fortnight's time so that it shall still remain at the value of lOs. Gesell's theory was that the trouble with the world was that people saved money so that what you had to do was to make them spend it faster.
          Disappearing money is the heaviest form of continuous taxation ever devised.
          The theory behind this idea of Gesell's was that what is required is to stimulate trade - that you have to get people frantically buying goods - a perfectly sound idea so long as the objective of life is merely trading."

          When a lOs. note becomes worth only 9s. 11d. tomorrow, a man will go and buy something and so stimulate trade. In fact you have exactly the same state of affairs as existed at the time of the stupendous German inflation of the mark.
          When a waiter received payment in millions of marks he hardly waited to throw down his napkin before dashing out to buy something, because the value was disappearing so rapidly that what he bought one minute would require a billion marks ten minutes hence.

          Government by Money
          These taxation schemes - I am not now talking of any particular theory, I am talking of conceptions of life - all these schemes are based on the assumption that you have to stimulate something or other. They are an attempt to produce a psychological effect by means of the monetary system. In other words, the monetary system is regarded not as a convenience for doing something which you decide yourself you want to do, but to make you do something because of the monetary system.
          I am not going into Social Credit technique tonight; I merely want to repeat that our conception of a monetary system is that it should be a system reflecting the facts, and it should be those facts, and not the monetary system that determine our action.
          When a monetary system dictates your actions, then you are governed by money, and you have the most subtle, dangerous and undesirable form of government that the perverted mind of man - if it is the mind of man - has ever conceived. "

          www.alor.org/Library/App...ality.htm#1a

          I apologize for some of the spelling and grammatical mistakes above. I'm used to spellcheck and tried to change a sentence after I wrote it,and left some words intact.
          reply to this post
          • jim
            jim
            offline 0

            Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

            Thu, April 26, 2007 - 8:47 PM
            I see you cannot access that URL from this server. The above quote was taken from C.H. Douglas' "The Approach to Reality".
            • B
              B
              offline 121

              Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

              Thu, April 26, 2007 - 9:31 PM
              "which is the socialist attack upon profit in general, and criticize this groups because they focus on bank profit - interest is profit"

              I have to disagree. Interest and profit are two very different things. By definition and in practice.

              I believe that Lietaer has a very good idea with the Tera but he is not willing to take it far enough and have it replace the existing money system, only supplement it.
              • jim
                jim
                offline 0

                Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

                Fri, April 27, 2007 - 3:45 PM
                Interest and profit are the same things. Interest is bank profit. Without interest, the bank does not profit. Loans are assets, deposits are liabilities. Without interest, banking would cease in all forms, because there are real costs associated with providing banking services. The bankers are the world's accountants, and there are real costs in terms of labour and capital in maintaining those accounts.

                "The Terra is a complementary, privately issued, demurrage-charged, Trade Reference Currency, that is backed by an inflation-resistant, standardized basket of the dozen most important commodities and services in the global market."

                So it is your belief that the amount of money in circulation should be based on how much of certain quantities of specific commodities exist in the world?

                Douglas defined real credit as the ability to deliver goods and services when, and where, they are required. Financial credit should be a representation of real credit.

                In what way does the existence of a bundle of commodities bear any relationship to the ability of the economy to deliver goods and services when and where they are required?
              • jim
                jim
                offline 0

                Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

                Fri, April 27, 2007 - 3:52 PM
                "Throughout the circulation life of each Terra(s), from its creation to its final cash-in, a demurrage fee of 3.5-4% per year is in effect. Demurrage is a time-related charge on money. This demurrage fee acts in a similar manner to a rental fee, the charge increasing the longer the rental is held onto.
                The demurrage charge serves two key functions: it serves as a circulation incentive; and covers Terra operational costs:
                • Terra Circulation Incentive. The demurrage charge is designed as an incentive to keep the Terras circulating in a timely fashion from one user to another. As the Terra demurrage charge increases the longer it is held onto as calculated below. Thus, the demurrage charge insures the Terras’ usage as a mechanism of exchange and not as a mechanism of storage"

                "Disappearing money is the heaviest form of continuous taxation ever devised.
                The theory behind this idea of Gesell's was that what is required is to stimulate trade - that you have to get people frantically buying goods - a perfectly sound idea so long as the objective of life is merely trading." (C.H. Douglas, "Approach to Reality")

                "These taxation schemes - I am not now talking of any particular theory, I am talking of conceptions of life - all these schemes are based on the assumption that you have to stimulate something or other. They are an attempt to produce a psychological effect by means of the monetary system. In other words, the monetary system is regarded not as a convenience for doing something which you decide yourself you want to do, but to make you do something because of the monetary system. " (C.H. Douglas, "Approach to Reality")
                • B
                  B
                  offline 121

                  Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

                  Fri, April 27, 2007 - 10:21 PM
                  "So it is your belief that the amount of money in circulation should be based on how much of certain quantities of specific commodities exist in the world? "

                  Actually that is another thing that I don’t like about the Tera. I do like its basis in demurrage. That has been proven to work when as interest has been proven to not work.

                  I believe that the amount of money in circulation should grow when a person creates something new of value (either good or service). I believe that money should only exist to facilitate the flow of goods and services. I would take it further to have money be destroyed when the environment is destroyed through pollution or consumption of non-renewable resources. As a tax to be a direct link between the flow of goods and services and the destruction of the planet. As an incentive people should be able to invest their money in the environment, like planting trees, growing saving wetlands and wildlife to increase the money supply. Money should not increase through interest which is just an account slight of hand.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    jim
                    jim
                    offline 0

                    Re: Your comments on this will be appreciated

                    Sun, April 29, 2007 - 8:11 PM
                    "I believe that the amount of money in circulation should grow when a person creates something new of value (either good or service). "

                    Then you will be very interested in Social Credit.

                    Douglas stated that the real credit of the community was its ability to deliver goods and services, when, and where, they are required. He believed that the financial credit of the community should be a representation of its real credit. Increases in the real credit of the community should be reflected by increases in financial credit.

                    However; due to an accounting flaw Doulgas discovered in his A+B theorem, prices always rise faster than incomes when regarded as a flow. This means that countries must either seek export markets to dispose of their excess goods that they are unable to purchase, or they must go into debt in order to purchase these goods. The system is not self-financing, and we must continually mortgage the future in order to consume the goods that are already extant. This causes production for its own sake - waste, and it is my belief that this is the primary cause of pollution today. It is also why there are those who deny the existence of problems associated with pollution. The financial system forces us to grow or die. This leads to "growth" for its own sake (waste), and its consequent pollution. Without changing the monetary system which governs our economic lives, environmentalists are fighting a losing battle, because people will not accept curtailment of growth in the current economic system.

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