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Re: no way!
Tue, September 19, 2006 - 9:50 PMSorry everyone.
My fault, I've been caught up with other things so haven't had time to come here and pull out the weeds.
But normal services will be resumed.
General announcement.
This tribe is for talking about alternative money and economics. Off-topic posts will be deleted.
I am a *little* bit sympathetic to more general discussions of alternative societies and sustainable ways of living, although they'd be better discussed on Utopia Research and Design or somewhere. I may tolerate them.
Equally, I may tolerate posts about making money *if* (and only if) they're *conceptually* interesting. If you want to get into deep philosophical debates about pyramid schemes and chain letters, yeah you can do it. But if you're just trying to promote them. Forget it! -
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Re: no way!
Wed, September 20, 2006 - 8:42 AM[quote]deep philosophical debates about pyramid schemes[/quote]
Pyramid schemes only are bad if the guy at the bottom doesnt get something he wants for the money he pays. If he gets a false hope then its no worse than any other sham except that it is compounded by how ever many people are in the pyramid. If it is a fair or at least an honest agreed upon exchange then its not a problem. My concept of neo-feudalism, that I think I've discussed with you Phil, kind of works as a pyramid. I don't feel its the least bit bad because the mechanics are layed out for everyone involved and every one involved gets something that they agree is valuable for their investment. -
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Re: no way!
Wed, September 20, 2006 - 1:09 PM>Pyramid schemes only are bad if the guy at the bottom doesn't get something he wants for the money he pays.<
That's pretty much the functional definition of pyramid schemes. But as you point out there are ways to construct multi-level marketing business plans which even at the base of the pyramid people receive value.
I'm cheap so multi-level marketing has always tended to irritate me. I can't explain why but whenever I hear an Amway pitch coming on, a bit of anger wells up in me. But I must admit now that I'm finally online and am getting a feel for the possibilities of social networks, multi-level marketing plans seem much more appealing to me now.
Multi-level marketing is one way to account for the value of reputations. At least the databases and structure of legitimate multi-level marketing plans are worth studying for those interested in keeping track of the value of social networks in commerce.
"Let the buyer beware" is sound advice for the ages. So the inherent unsustainability of pyramid schemes is something that must be widely understood. I think it's best left as a negative example. So just as a matter of rhetoric or marketing, Vlad, it seems to me a good idea that you find ways of explaining your concept of neo-feudalism other than "kind of works as a pyramid." The important thing is to make the distinction between your idea and a pyramid scheme. And the fundamental distinction is that in any sound business plan the people at the base receive value for their efforts.
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Re: no way!
Thu, September 28, 2006 - 10:46 AM... I was searching for something and found about this tribe, and just stopped by then saw this thread ... please allow me to contribute on this thread ...
... my wish for our world is to bring true health and wealth, I have my website for that ... hope anyone who has such time can take a look on my site on Network Business ...
I had a bad image on network marketing, MLM, but I now know a little bit better that not all are scheme and illegal. at this point of our world I see money can do a lot to fix our problems, and as long as it is legal, then money need to be spread in order to help out and protect our innocence and rights. ... more, please read my site.
( English is my second language so I am sorry if giving you a hard time to comprehend my English. )
www.mermaidsutra.com
... otherwise, just disregard and delete this ... -
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Re: no way!
Tue, October 3, 2006 - 4:42 AMMermasutra
How about giving a defense, explaining why this works for the people at the bottom of the pyramid -
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Re: no way!
Wed, October 4, 2006 - 8:51 PMphil, thank you for your regard ...
unfortunately, I do not have any solid defense to support MLM in the subject for the people at the bottom of the pyramid, ... although I suggest on my site that the people who are top of the pyramid should come down at some point to be at the bottom of the pyramid so that the circulation would never end ... some MLM companies do not seem supporting people to have duplicate accounts, though. I am sorry for not standing fully to support for the whole system of the MLM but what I see now is what MLM/network marketing can do rather than what they can not do. if we only see one business then it absolutely sees the end at the bottom of the pyramid. but we have so many products and services to be involved, and I also believe the system of typical MLM will be adjusted and improved better as time passes, ... some part of MLM system has already been being adjusted by FTC which is good so that MLM is reaching the status of real business:) humans are very intelligent and not all humans are greedy who only see their only sakes. one company I know of has been trying to rewrite the rule of MLM, what they have done so far is not a significant change but they just got rid of the part to join, no fee to enroll. another one I know of only allow a certain numbers of people/commission to share, which does not go endlessly to the bottom. at some point the distributors will become the franchisees and receive some percentage of the company's profit instead of commissions, besides their sales. and many of those MLM companies are into environment and health concerns and even to donate some their profits for helping others. through this way of business, we might not be able to make everyone wealthy but I see much better flourishment than ever. and I believe when many of us become wealthy enough then more people begin to make donations and to consider to share instead of to hold onto the financial secure and just consuming. many people will consider better food instead of junk because the quality of life and standard will change, and that will broaden our minds to see the world with care ...,
... I could rewrite my whole website here so I need to stop now :-)
I just want to add that money has been seen as material but money is indeed spiritual, if you care :-) ... how we see money might be really the reflection / projection of who / how we are.
I am sorry for not responding for your request.
... MLM is not a new business, it's been there for quite a while and still exist, means, many people still see the great potential and carefully examining in order for the business to last long. hope people can see what "can" instead of "can not" ... and we should trust the intelligence in our brains and our hearts to improve our systems into share, to serve, and to nurture us all.
( thank you so much for giving me the space to speak ... I tried to make it short but still long ... apologize. ) -
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Re: no way!
Mon, October 9, 2006 - 1:14 PMYou know, with all due respect to your touchy feely philosophy, I think it shows a complete lack of responsibility on your part by supporting MLMs. The people who are hit hardest by these types of things aren't the types of people that participate in discussion threads online while they waste away the hours at work. It's the people who are actually persuaded by poorly written letters and e-mails to waste the money (that they probably should be spending on food and health insurance) who are hurt the most.
There's no value added in any of this, unless you consider the school of Hard Knocks as added value.
Furthermore, my suggestion is that this entire thread be deleted before Google indexes it and we get slammed with 419 scams.
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Re: no way!
Mon, October 9, 2006 - 1:21 PMI just want to make it very clear that there is an insanely huge difference between "recieving value" and "percieving value" where there isn't any. This is why we have thigns like lemon laws and money-back garuntees. You'll find no such thing with a MLM. Alternative Money and Economics allows you to explore the possibilities here, but theres still a reason traditional economists like to refer to these types of things as "poor people taxes". -
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Re: no way!
Tue, October 10, 2006 - 5:25 AM[quote]I just want to make it very clear that there is an insanely huge difference between "recieving value" and "percieving value" where there isn't any.[/quote]
[quote]theres still a reason traditional economists like to refer to these types of things as "poor people taxes".[/quote]
Let the buyer beware. If you're not adult enough to educate yourself to the realities of life and live accordingly, I have little patience or sympathy for you. I often refer to it as economic darwinism. Those who refuse to adapt to the realities of the market are passed by and fail to survive.
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Re: no way!
Tue, October 10, 2006 - 10:13 AMThe difference between receiving and perceiving value seem huge to you, but they don't seem so obvious to me. The idea that people respond to incentives is basic to economics. A perceived value can indeed provide incentive.
I just watched a Ted presentation by Jacqueline Novogratz, CEO of the Acumen Fund tedblog.typepad.com/tedblog/...novo.html Novogratz tells a great story that demonstrates in a remarkable way how connected all of us are as people, which I won't ruin by telling so suggest you hear it for yourselves--it's right at the beginning of her 10 minute talk. Later in the talk she describes a loan that the Acumen Fund made to the largest manufacturer of bed nets in Tanzania. The production side is going well, but the distribution side needs more work. I was impressed she talked about a "Tupperware" model for sales and distribution because something I've been calling the Avon Model is something I've been thinking of quite a bit recently in re distribution in Africa.
One of the key problems with MLM schemes is the tendency of MLM's to hire too many employees. That's really a pitfall to avoid, but there are obvious advantages to MLM's in scaling up distribution networks and for the creation of a sales force who can sell products in a culturally effective way.
The importance of the differences between perceived and received value is something I'd like to hear Joseph talk about some more. Monetary rewards are very well understood incentives. In trying to develop businesses with very little money obviously the first thing is to start small with an eye towards scaling up. My hunch is that alternative currencies can play a role in providing both perceived and received value, perhaps in the form of time dollars, for providing incentives to grow small businesses in the developing world. Both reputation and attention have value. It seems to me reputation and attention can be measured and assigned a value not necessarily keyed to a monetary unit.
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Re: no way!
Mon, October 16, 2006 - 7:44 AMGreat Post!
I will watch the video when I have a few extra minutes but I wanted to shoot this off before I run out for lunch.
Using MLM in a developing nation is an angle I hadn't looked at before. For people with no money to begin with, I would think, there is very little difference between percieved and recieved value. For some, just the hope of making money is enough, and alternative currencies are certainly acceptable here too, if we mean alternative currency as in incentives, ie. free product. The things I take issue with, are when the trust and intelligence of your "salesforce" are taken advantage of. In America, we learn at a very young age about a type of MLM when we work our asses off to sell gift wrap for a cheap CD player that breaks after a week. For me, at least, thats where my ideas of percieved vs. recieved value stem from. The reason I brought it up here, is because an earlier post suggested that what your salesforce recieves has value. This immediatly conjures up images of buying e-books on E-bay that outline elaborate pyramid schemes. Thats the assumption I based my critiques off of.
I don't like to use terms like "the greater good", but it seems like that can be your goal, and you can still make money, especially with ideas like yours. Terms like "buyer beware" work because it's generally one consumer warning another. Terms like that don't work the same way when it's a company telling me to beware of their product.
After re-reading, I probably came off like I despise all forms of MLM, when what I really can't stand is people preying on those without the the foresight to figure out what they are getting themselves into. You don't get to a position where you can make some money without going through the school of Hard Knocks, I understand that, but I feel very strongly that some of the people masquerading as "legitimate business men" are nothing more than scam artists, or at the very least, need a class in business ethics.
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