does the future need cash?

topic posted Sat, July 29, 2006 - 12:10 AM by  Andrii
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I was just wondering that there must be many ways in which the future could go. If the world goes into singularity and all resources become non-scarce, then would we
even need currency?

say for instance if we all lived inside computers, connected to each other through p2p connection network called the internet9, lived somewhere you didn't have to pay
for your property, and did not have to worry about any physical existance because you have backups alll over the place and all your friends have a copy, and basically
no one has to worry about dieing.

where would the need for money arise? we will no longer need to borrow money for resources because, all resources including processed things would not cost you money
(everything is virtual or copyable in a similar way). so basically old information will not cost anything, it's just whatever you choose to adopt, (benefits others for
you to adopt cause then you can have a copy of their memory). Alright, and assuming bandwidth and all hardwarde limitations will not exist either (quantum entangled
particles, created universes etc). and then if our existance is not questioned either in terms of the universe ending or anything making us "immortal gods". as we
could create our own realites and even realities for others, (maybe universes too).

so basically, we will not have to do anything in a hurry, so time would not be a problem.

the point is i wanted to know if any of you could think of perhaps some examples of a necessty for money, in any form existing in such a world

here is an example i thought i had but it seems as if it's not necessary afterall:


i was thinking that perhaps we might want someones attention for a problem that we have. So the possible replies to a request for attention, is to give attention and
to not. the reasons why someone might give attention, are A because they find it interesting, or B you expect the repayment of a debt. I guess if there is an unlimited
amount of information, then a finite amount of people or finite amount of storage space, and it's even more doubtful you could store multiple copies.

with no institutions however there will not really be anyone to hold the money, or rather to enforce it's repayment. so the person being paid will have to trust the
money they are being given. the easiest way is to verify with the issuer of the money. I was thinking that perhaps the money could be issued from a group of people so
any of the members are liable to repay the debt, and just the one person that initiated the debt.

There is the problem however that you may initiate some debt, that was not approved by the group. that means you would have to verify with the "group". now what can
happen is that you could list a few other people that benefit from the purchase of knowledge creation that you are making, that would be willing to do x worth amount
of creative information for it. there should not be a problem of people stock piling a certain person then asking a lot of things at once from the same person as they
could just make a few copies of themselves to do the work, or work on these things in the "background". processor space really wont be an issue and it would be rare
that something would require all of your consciousness to do creative things, and when it is, i think by definition you'd find it interesting, and even in that case
you could create a copy of yourself that only lived to complete that mission if your really didn't want to, though you would by doing this give it the option of
actually killing itself. that's really the only thing you lose when you give out copies of yourselves, you risk them becoming more valuable than yourself. and then you
wouldn't be asked to do so many things, though your name might not be as weighty on such a list.

the question though is, what's stopping you from asking those people now. if they could just make a copy of themselves that would most likely die of depression once it
finishes whatever task you sent it out to do. most people probably wont mind making copies of themselves, and those that do, could have probably a large group of
people convince them to do it themselves if they bother them enough or what not (though you could always ignore them, you probably wont want to ignore all your
friends, unless they aren't friends that is). so even this form of creative money system is probably not necessary. perhaps it would exist in some earlier instance
where people can't just make instances of themselves whose sole purpose in life is to do the task assigned.
posted by:
Andrii
Toronto
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  • Re: does the future need cash?

    Sat, July 29, 2006 - 3:05 PM
    Several responses.

    Once you go through the singularity, all bets are off as to whether particular institutions we have now, survive. That's pretty much the definition of "singularity".

    I'd say that an "economy" is any institution which manages the circulation and distribution of scarce resources. When you talk about resources which are not, in any meaningful way, scarce, then you probably don't need an economy (whether money based or not) to manage their distribution or circulation. Take something like people's first names. Parents are free to give their children any first name they like. There's no scarecity here, so no economy manages them. Even though parents have preferences, and interesting patterns of distribution appear in both space and time.

    OTOH, internet domain names are very scarce. And get managed by an economy.

    You don't have to wait for the singularity for attention economies and reputation economies or even gift economies to start to encroach on the money economy. You see it all the time on the internet, that people are motivated to produce (writing, photos, videos, software) for non-monetory rewards. The way I characterise this is that the internet is a laboratory for constructing new economies : it provides the basic communication layer, computers provide the basic accounting (remembering who did what and when) and people discover what things motivate them, what things they want to give or exchange for what.

    Some of those economies intersect with the money economy. I can buy a limited amount of attention for money by buying an advert. Others are more distinct. There are things I'll do for love that I won't do for money. And vice versa.

    Will we need money in the future? I'm willing to say we'll use it a lot less than we do now. And, already we're using it less than people like us did 20 years ago. On my optimistic days I can imagine a world where money (and exchange) are reduced to something like a fifth of our overall economic activity within our life-times.
    • Re: does the future need cash?

      Sun, July 30, 2006 - 9:30 PM
      Hi Phil,

      Quote: "I'm willing to say we'll use it a lot less than we do now. And, already we're using it less than people like us did 20 years ago."

      Really? I don't have hard numbers, but I would assume we use money more, and will continue to use money more, then we did in the past. By money I don't mean coins and bills, necessarily, but credit money and computer money and other, non-hard-cash monies.

      My thinking is this: In the past, say 200 years ago, the bulk of the people in the country worked in agriculture. You had small farmers that raised most of the food they used in a year, or you had larger farms that needed laborers, but a good chunk of the laborers' payment was in room and board. In other words, they were paid in kind, not in cash. My understanding is that a lot of rural transactions went this way. Doctors were paid with what the farmer could give, and it frequently wasn't cash. In small farming communities, a lot of transactions were barter, or they were an extension of credit that was tracked in dollars, but the money never actually changed hands: The ledger was cleared by another, non-money transaction.

      As the population got more urban, and, more importantly, more transactions took place between strangers, money became more important. Money, in this case, is a transaction mechanism that requires no trust between the people exchanging. (You don't care if the person you did the deal with keeps their word, because you got the cash.

      Other examples pop to mind: If you wanted entertainment, you could wander out to your front porch or to the town square and strike up a conversation. No one does that anymore. You have to go to a coffeeshop or bar and buy a drink (requires money), or you have to have a computer and an Internet connection (requires money), or a cell phone (money), etc.

      The upshot is, I think money is so much more commonly used that we don't even notice it. We find a story on the Internet, and we think it's cheaper than a video rental, but we forget the upfront costs of the computer or the assumed cost of the monthly Internet connection.

      Thoughts? Am I looking at the question completely differently than you are?
      Hmmm. I just reread your sentences. You say "people like us." That may be valid, as I think I do buy fewer objects these days. I was thinking in terms of "people overall." Care to expand on your statement?
      • Re: does the future need cash?

        Mon, August 7, 2006 - 1:55 AM
        well, my perspective on the matter is that we do use less cash now than we did 20 years ago. We might use more because we have more (going to restaurants, going to a coffee shop). however the actual cost of things has decreased in comparison to our salary.

        however i didn't really start the topic thinking about scarce goods, like the kind that we need to pay money for now. i was thinking more about non-scarce goods. like those in the future which has already partially arrived with the current incarnation of "the Web". right now we do not have to pay per thing that we do online, because at the price of a few bus tickets a month you can have an internet connection, in any technologically advanced part of the world. and the technological gap is only shrinking as we move forward in time so that's not really an issue.


        so basically, when you don't have scarcity of the usual resources like internet, electricity, and property. assuming you live in a computing medium with no limits, what would you pay for.


        and for one thing you don't pay for that you had to 10 years ago, try just about any form of media (music/video/book/news source) and lots of other forms have popped up because of the lack of a cost of proliferation.
  • Re: does the future need cash?

    Sat, July 29, 2006 - 4:28 PM
    1) Any digital world that we can imagine must be based somewhere on reality, our solid analogue universe. If it was not, then it could have no way to receive the signals that are us and we would have no way to demonstrate its relative reality, if it were indeed real.

    2) Any copy of me would worry about dying. Copy #493 of me would be just as survival conscious as the original me. Or do you think people could become so altruistic so as to say, "There's so many of me around, why not just turn off this particular speck of consciousness so I no longer exist." Or would they say, "Good idea, but let copy # 494 do it." While #494 says, "Hell, I was here before #495; let him do it!" Then #495 (last in the copy line) muses, "I know. Let's just make an extra copy to turn off!"

    3) In a universe where anything can be copied to infinity, I guess by nanotech, then someone will work out copy protection. This could be a kernel containing a complex code, which kernel can not be copied without messing up the code because of a random order of copying the atoms in the kernel. This is inserted into the original of any object making it possible to always identify the original from a mere copy. Thus, although everyone can have an identical copy of Napoleon's toilet seat, only one can have the original, making this item emotionally very valuable.

    4) The Singularity is a questionable item. The rapidly increasing level of human technology, as are most other aspects of human activity, is fueled by petroleum. With a possible crumbling of the world economy, the Singularity may be moving off into the more distant future, if it is to occur at all.

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